Rise The Victor Podcast
Rise The Victor is not just another podcast; it's a fresh, no-nonsense journey into the realms of success coaching, personal empowerment, and mental wellness. Stripping away the unnecessary fluff, we delve deep into the transformative world of therapy and coaching, offering unique perspectives and actionable insights. Our episodes are a blend of thought-provoking discussions, practical entrepreneurial wisdom, and inspiring stories. We bring you exclusive interviews with clients who have achieved remarkable transformations, insightful dialogues with industry colleagues, and captivating encounters with celebrities. All of this is crafted to ignite your journey towards personal freedom and success. Join us at Rise The Victor, where we redefine the narrative of triumph and well-being.
Rise The Victor Podcast
Navigating Childhood in the Digital Age: Impact of Smartphones and AI on Our Kids
The latest episode with Linzi and Chris. We delve into the profound implications of smartphone usage on our children's development. Discover how a childhood once defined by imagination and direct social interactions now contends with the lure of digital screens. We share a heartfelt narrative, touching on our own experiences and the undeniable shifts observed in society – from the addictive grasp of mobile devices to the distorted aspirations fueled by social media platforms.
In this episode, we uncover the paradox of AI's promise against its pervasive reach, exploring its role from personalized education to the creation of emotional ties with digital companions. Ethical challenges arise with manipulated imagery and deepfakes, leaving us questioning the very fabric of truth. We then shine a light on the darker corners of technology's impact, considering how it shapes young minds, affects decision-making, and prepares them – or fails to prepare them – for a future workforce increasingly dominated by AI.
As we wrap up our discussion, we confront a silent epidemic: the escalation of loneliness and mental health concerns amongst youth that coincides with early smartphone exposure. With a commitment to safeguard our children, we highlight movements championing a smartphone-free childhood and the importance of community and educational involvement. Join us in reimagining pathways for our children, where technology serves as a tool rather than a master, and where their mental well-being is preserved for a brighter, more connected future.
If you've found our discussions enlightening and want to learn more or explore working directly with Chris, visit chrismeaden.com. For opportunities with Linzi, visit linzimeaden.com.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Rise the Victor. My name is Linzi and I'm Chris and to anyone who doesn't know, we are actually husband and wife and we run our own trauma therapy business.
Chris:So what are we?
Linzi:talking about today, chris.
Chris:Well, you tell me actually this is one which you're really passionate about.
Linzi:We were going to talk about something else, but this is something that I've become aware of in the last week I think in only the last week and it's triggered something within me. That's something I've discovered, that I'm really passionate about this topic. This has got me. My ears are listening, my eyes are open and I am very much learning a lot about this, and I want to talk about this today because it's something I feel really strongly about and it's about smartphone free childhood. What do you think when you hear that, chris?
Chris:It would be bliss there'd be so many people have better mental health. It's a huge contributor to problems with childhood mental health and we've effectively allowed the smartphone revolution to take over our children's imagination, their lives, and it's massively impacting how we're able to parent our children. So I think that this we have the first generation now which we can see what the impact of mobile phones, in particular, smartphones, is, and it's not good, not and this is the thing we had back when, I mean, smartphones first came out in.
Linzi:was it 2006? 2007?
Chris:I think so, something like that.
Linzi:Around that time and at that point, at that time, we had no understanding of the impact that, the impact this is going to have on children and teenagers. Now we do, 2024, the evidence is overwhelming and we need to do something about it now. Smartphones are highly addictive. We know that. We know it firsthand with ourselves. We are grownups, and yet I'm guilty of allowing my smartphone to essentially getting the way of life where it's become almost permanently attached to my hand.
Linzi:And prior to 2020, march 2020, when everything shut down around the world, I wasn't really that addictive to my phone. I didn't really use it much, I wasn't on it much, but obviously the world went through a stage where suddenly everything had to go online. We weren't allowed to go out and do things and meet with people and, yeah, we moved everything online. And then our phones became the way to live, for me in particular, because I lost my brother to suicide in June 2020. And for me, I needed to share my grief journey online. I needed to connect and join communities of others who had lost loved ones to suicide, who had lost loved ones to suicide. So from that point, I then did start using my phone more and more, to the point where it's become damaging, and I know that.
Linzi:I'm a grown up and I can see the impact it's had on my mental, emotional well-being, and I'm very aware of the impact that's having on our children. At the time, back in 2020, they were three and a half our twins. They're now seven and I've completely changed how I'm using my phone. Now. If they see me with my phone, they know it's mummy's working, but I'm very much aware that when I'm with them, that phone is elsewhere. It's not with me unless I'm taking a call. But it's not how it was previously and I think they look up to us. They're seeing everyone around them teenagers, older children, grownups constantly on their phones. What's it doing to their?
Chris:Yes, chris, chris yeah, I mean, if you think about the school run kids walking to school they used to call it the blackberry stoop. People fixated to their blackberries when that was in fashion and now it's the smartphone stoop, looking down and saying, walking along the pavement, not paying attention, walking in front of cars oh I know, I run around this around the neighborhood and kids are totally oblivious to anything and I'm sure there's a number of accidents as a result of their lack of awareness around them.
Chris:It was actually june 2007 the first iphone came out, but obviously we're talking about our twins, but also I have my boys, who are 22 and 21 and I've seen with them having the mobile phones at the early stages.
Chris:It's massively impacted because it's access to the social media platforms which really is the issue here. Obviously, iphone smartphones they have all the games and gaming apps and stuff like that but the biggest I'd say the biggest influencer is the access to social networks. Say they have a limitation on age of a certain but you can open the account, but everyone opens accounts below their age and have instant access to all kinds of inappropriate content and that's shaping the world view of a child as to what's expected and with with social media platforms is a voyeurism into this unrealistic world which people portray themselves of having this certain lifestyle. If you ask the kid what you want to do now, it's I want to be a social media influencer and they think that's really cool and hip and they don't realize what worked behind it. But it's a portrayal of this is what people want to do.
Linzi:I was shocked actually on a children's tv show. Am I allowed to mention it or not?
Chris:I'm sure we're okay.
Linzi:We're small enough to not to be it's on Blue Peter, which my little boy was watching. Our little boy was watching recently and they had a social media influencer come on and I was horrified to think they were congratulating this person on how many likes and followers they had. What is that doing?
Linzi:What message is that sending out? I was actually quite shocked. I always thought Blue Peter was wholesome and good values and would not be encouraging this. I think I'm actually going to write a message in. I just that the messaging is all wrong and I think everyone not everyone, sorry people are getting caught up into this trance that this is the way forward, we have to embrace technology, and but, my goodness, it's so much more than that. This is the way forward. We have to embrace technology, but, my goodness, it's so much more than this.
Linzi:This is not just about technology. This is about how we are being hypnotized and programmed by this social media, this tech, this dopamine that's in our hand, giving us that rush of feel-good feelings, and we don't have it. Then we're the stress hormones and it's going round and round in a vicious circle of needing this and then, if you don't have it, you're missing out, and the pressure from others that if you don't have it, there's something wrong with you, and then there's bullying yeah, and just think about the pressures the social pressures of having the latest phone.
Chris:But these phones cost like 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds a month subscription and parents are providing children with these new phones because that's what the pressure is from all the other kids. So it's putting an additional cost to the household and a continuous cycle of upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. I think we're starting to get a little bit tired of it now, with the big manufacturers making their systems fail when really the technology is there for them to last forever. It's just that they put software updates to make the things slow down, so we have to buy a new one. It's a cycle we're in, but ultimately, if you have an old phone, you get ridiculed at school, same as if you don't have the right type of clothes. So you're creating this situation where the haves and have-nots parents will spend money on a smartphone subscription payment rather than maybe spending money on better nutrition for their child.
Linzi:And back in our day, back in the 70s and 80s, you know that for us it was things like trainers or if we didn't have the, the latest trainers or certain items of clothing or whatever, and so it's just moving with the times. It's just now, it's expensive technology, but it doesn't mean to say that we have to carry on with that. And still that pressure is so wrong. And I actually did some research talking to those in their late teens, early 20s, who have had access to the smartphones, who have joined all these social media sites, and to get their input social media sites and to get their input. And it was interesting. One of the feedbacks I had was he said having social media can be beneficial in helping young generations to feel understood and also educated. That statement, right there, shocked me. Two reasons to feel understood. So their needs are not being met. Why are they feeling that they're not being understood or heard?
Chris:and that's a role of parenting, not a role of providing information. But now what happens is you give a child a phone and basically in I'm getting on a bit. So in my day you had four tv channels, that was it. And then you had the fifth channel so you knew what your child was watching or what you could watch, you could be exposed to. There was no youtube, there was no social networks.
Chris:Now you get a phone, you've got a doorway to the world, to the internet, but for the vast majority is unrestricted and most parents don't know how to access, to use the technology, to control the content.
Chris:So, consequently, a child who has natural curiosity is accessing stuff way above their age and watching all kinds of things like we know ourselves, the americanisms from tv shows which are influencing children and ultimately, because of the content of these different platforms.
Chris:And whilst it's an evolution of technology, there's just not enough awareness of how much mental health issues have been created. I see time and time again people who are addicted to phones, a phone access, phone phone use or social media, and especially for females, your self-worth, self-confidence, is defined on how many shares and likes you get on your latest post, your latest selfie, and if it's not good enough, you take it again and maybe make it more provocative until you get enough likes. So you're handing over your self-worth, self-image, self-esteem, all the same alignment to something external to you which you have no control. So you're at the hands of social networks to then define whether or not you feel good about yourself. So, consequently, you're losing that ability, whereas you build it up yourself. But that's the thing it's. The clue is self, but instead it's been handed over and passed over to social networks to give us that yeah, I'm just gonna read.
Linzi:I'm just gonna read through. There's a really good website called delaysmartphonesorguk and they list the evidence where these major issues. That's really good site to look at. They're the evidence, obviously, the sexual content and behavior that they are witnessing, exposing children to this very offensive content, pressuring girls into sending images of themselves and exposing children to abuse and grooming. Then then there's the physical health. It's actually damaging children's eyes. Again, this is proof. This is evidence. There's evidence backed here.
Linzi:This isn't just scaremongering. It contributes to obesity in children. They're saying nine hours a day average screen time in kids with a smartphone 43% higher risk of obesity for those using smartphones for five hours plus per day. Preventing children playing outside children spend twice as long looking at screens as playing outside. Damaging the development of children's spine 69 of children reporting neck pain due to smartphone use and% displaying a neck disability of children studied with a smartphone. Stopping kids getting enough sleep.
Linzi:And as we know us as grown-ups we know the impact again screens, smartphone, have on our sleep. And then there's the mental and emotional health. It's responsible for a huge increase in cyberbullying and children not having any respite from bullies when they're at home, when they're away from school or other places, even if they're at home, that bullying is still happening there on their screens. 84% of bullying to children with smartphones happens online. There's the increase in depression and anxiety in children since 2004 98% more depression in under 18s. 10% of under 17s have attempted suicide and sadly, as I know, because I'm very much now in this community of suicide loss and I see from parents, from family members who have lost young children we're talking 10, 10 year olds, nine year olds I think it's the youngest that I've heard of nine, that's crazy devastating and it's all stems back.
Linzi:It's connected to smartphones, screens, smartphones bullying and then there's the increasing loneliness in children as well and look.
Chris:The thing is that we're talking about this is research up to this point.
Chris:So this is where we're at.
Chris:We're just on on the on the start of the ai revolution and we're talking about having individual tutors, having you can have effective relationships with, like an AI girlfriend, an AI boyfriend, ai friends.
Chris:So everything from this point forward is going to be amplified even greater. So you have a total disconnect from proper real world and you have this new AI thing where I mean it was bad enough when filters came in a few years ago where you can take a photo of yourself and press a button, beautify yourself, make yourself younger or do all these various different things. So when you're looking at people on photos, that they are false and it's like the recent advertising from google, the ai, where you change a person's head pose to align with the photo. So you've got an unreal, unrealistic memory of a photo taken and it's been AI-touched up. And, of course, we're going to have deep fakes for the whole election in the UK, the election in the US. All this stuff is all coming and the enablers and the mobile phone, and, as parents of children, we don't have enough education as to what we need to do and how we can control this. And this is just getting out of control and it's going to get worse and worse yeah you said about grooming.
Chris:I've had people who have been blackmailed, young kids who have been blackmailed at the age of 12. And, as you said, made to send photos of themselves and then being blackmailed for money. I've had quite a few clients in which I've had to deal with the trauma, ptsd as a result. These things are becoming more and more common and this campaign is perfect. It's just at the right time because, also, what happens is that prior to the mobile phone, if you wanted to meet up with your friends, you had to flex your muscle in your brain to actually decide where you're going to meet up. You need to coordinate with your friends. You had to do things. If you were out in town, then you'd have to have a. You wouldn't have a mobile phone, you'd have a telephone boxes. You'd have a phone cards. Now I'm not suggesting to go back to that, but what happened in the process is you develop the decision muscle in your brain to be able to flex about making decisions.
Chris:What happens now is we have helicopter parenting where you just say mom, can you pick us up?
Chris:Dad, can you pick us up? Can you take us here, pick us up, can you take us here, take us there and it's just a text away, a WhatsApp away, so the child's brain is not being developed to have ability to make decisions and reasoning. So when they become adults, when they actually have to go into the world and create a career, they don't have that decision muscle built up in their brain and consequently, that creates a whole lot of issues. So we've got a lot of things which we're which we've not really taken in consideration. It's only showing up now where these generation of people who've had smartphones are now entering the workplace, and then this realization of how inadequately they are equipped for life in employment and, of course, with employment being so different, with AI coming through, changing jobs, the technology which is coming through is going to totally change and we're talking massive changes in the next two to three years, which will totally transform how we look at life next two to three years, which is totally transform how we look at life, absolutely.
Linzi:I'll just carry on with this evidence that's on this website because it's really interesting and I really want to bring people's attention to it. So I said increasing loneliness in children. Loneliness has doubled in children since 2012. School loneliness is highest where access to smartphones and internet use is high. This was some data done in 2021, making children more likely to self-harm 24 of uk girls age 17 have self-harmed. 140 increase in hospitalization rates for self-harm since 2010. Suicide rates for girls are rising. Are smartphones to blame? Again, that's a study back in 2023. The first generation of children who were given smartphones in primary school are now adults and we know for every year we know now know for every year younger they were given smartphones by their parents. Their mental health is worse today. I don't get that sentence. I've read that wrong. But basically, yeah, mental health as we know, it's a pandemic. Mental health is worse today. I don't get that sentence. I've read that wrong. But basically, yeah, mental health as we know, it's a pandemic mental health, suicidal thoughts.
Linzi:People are suffering and that is that's the real pandemic. Going on, focus and brain changes addictive. It's so addictive. We know that, and children's brains aren't even fully developed and yet they're getting those addictive behaviours. 46% of teens say they use their phones almost constantly. 23% of young people have dysfunctional relationships with their smartphones. One in four children have problematic smartphone use. It reduces the children's ability to focus. Nearly 40% of children experience reduced levels of concentration due to smartphones, creating structural changes to children's brains. Excessive smartphone use associated with psychiatric, cognitive, emotional, medical and brain changes. And then there's social development, as you were saying just a moment ago reducing time with friends in person, socialising, the ability to actually think for themselves.
Chris:On that front, if you think you see friends catch up and they're in a circle and they're texting themselves on their phones, rather than looking up and talking to them. You think what is going on here? You're in front of a person communicate. It's all about the social skills. The increase in social anxiety is massive because people don't aren't developing those skills, because they're just stuck in the phone.
Linzi:It's terrifying to see you. I see that so much. And what? What I find scary is that, um, our little ones at primary school they're seven. Every day we're doing the school run. We see all the other year groups around years five and six, I think it is have smartphones. So they what age? Nine, ten, eleven? But they have to hand their smartphones in now at the office. The problem is, as soon as those children come out from school, that's it. They're right there with their smartphones staring at them, gathering around in groups, looking at their screens. What message is that giving to our younger ones who look up to those children in year five and six?
Linzi:I'm on a mission. I'm going to speak to the school about this and I'll tell you more about what the movement I've joined in a moment, because we have to act now. We cannot simply keep ignoring this and putting our head in the sand and saying but that's the way of the world today, it's expected. We can't, you know. We just have to be a little bit more accepting. No, I'm sorry. No, we don't.
Linzi:We actually have to protect our children now, because if we don't, we are going to be in a far worse place in years to come. We have to speak up now and make the change. Our children need us to help. They are relying on us. So just going back to that website about social development reducing time with friends in person, reducing children's ability to empathize and communicate Kids are less able to read facial expressions or show empathy compared to previous generations and encouraging kids to turn to their peers over their parents, which I find very worrying because, as we know, every household, every parenting style is different. Children have very different values, different views, different upbringings, and if children are turning to their friends for advice, for help, you don't know what they're learning and what they're picking up, and some of it can be good, but some of it can be harmful.
Chris:And that's only going to shift to AI going forward. Say again that's only going to shift to AI going forward.
Linzi:Yep, so they'll be turning to artificial intelligence to answer their worries, their questions, their needing help.
Linzi:Get my AI to give me advice Wow.
Linzi:So that is a really powerful and I said just a moment ago about how I've joined this movement called Smartphone Free Childhood in the UK.
Linzi:So it's couk, really recommend if you have children at school, even if you don't, but if it's a topic that you're feel very strongly about, like I do, as you can probably tell, I've recently joined there's WhatsApp groups for your counties and then for your local towns or villages and then for your schools, so you can bring parents together or those who have a real strong interest in this and then start working together with parents, the support, supporting each other, getting a better understanding of what's happening and then working with the schools. So we're communicating, we're actually talking about this topic, we're actually sharing our views, doing research, sharing the knowledge, sharing the advice and allowing us to really open up this conversation so that the world is listening, so that children are allowed to actually have a smartphone free childhood. Because I am determined to keep talking about this topic now, now that I'm aware that it wasn't just me feeling this and thinking about this feeling nobody else thinks the same as me. It must be just just me. I'm just.
Chris:There is the movie the Social Dilemma I think it's the Social Dilemma which is basically interviewing the engineers who created the infinite scroll, the like button and the different elements, and they were designed for different purposes in mind, but they ended up being used.
Chris:Any social media platform is always trying to keep you attached to the screen so they can deliver adverts to sell you some product or service, and that's unavoidable. Now you have Google ads, you have Facebook ads, you have Instagram ads. We've handed over our privacy and given them the ability to mine our data, our interests, our likes, our dislikes and then deliver up, serve up targeted adverts to us, so they have no interest in you having a quick pop on and look at your messages and then pop back off again. They want you stuck on that and the the program. Really, if the film really does highlight how the algorithms work and obviously the algorithms change over time but it gives you a good idea as to what they do. And at the end they asked the engineers does your children have mobile phones? And they all said no, and these are the guys who designed the platforms. So that's just the evidence of just that sums it up right there.
Linzi:They know what's behind it, they know the impact it has, they know how damaging it is.
Linzi:They're not letting their own children have it.
Linzi:And yet the rest of us are just being sort of following the crowd, following following the herd, and thinking, yeah, this is fine, it's okay.
Linzi:But equally, I'm aware that there are many parents that believe strongly that children shouldn't have smartphones as well, but they are afraid to actually speak up and say that they are unsure how to go about changing it, because they know the pressure the child or children are going to be asking for this. And then pressure the child or children are going to be asking for this, and then they're worried their children are going to get bullied, because if you don't give in and give them a phone, they're opening up their child to being bullied by having it or not having it. Either way, you can't win. And then, as parents, we're stuck in that place of what do we do? How can we help when, whatever we do, our child is being put in a difficult position and all we want for our children is absolutely to ensure they have the best start to life and we want to do everything we can to protect them without being harmed by bullying and cyberbullying and everything else that they're exposed to.
Chris:And that has to come from the schools. In making it okay that children don't have mobile phones, it's for them to set the environment that a mobile phone is not a measure in identity or in any shape or form. It's a choice being offered or being taken by a parent to safeguard their child. You're still not going to stop children showing their mobile phones to their other kids unless they don't have the mobile phones in the school.
Linzi:It's about saying that actually not having a smartphone in childhood is the norm and having a smartphone is actually quite unusual and it seems and it should be. And this is the other one I was going to move on to is about what are the alternatives, because I'm totally aware of parents needing to communicate with their children. Obviously, we couldn't do that in our childhoods. We just had to send messages from one person to another person to get back to our parents, or they might, may not have known where we were, but that was very different then. Nowadays, parents do need to have more communication. There's a lot more activities out of school going on and there's everyone's rushing around and it's a faster pace and there needs to be that communication. So there are alternatives to smartphones so children can still ring their parent or their parent can still call their child and text, and with location trackers or access to maps or something like that, I can't imagine children picking up a to z's looking through like we actually do.
Linzi:Yeah, again on smartphonefreechildhoodcouk, they list the brilliant alternatives. So you've got the nokias. We had initially the brick phones, didn't we? With the great big aerial? No heavy things, and it's about making them just more functional. Actually, you don't need it.
Chris:It's not. There's something. Really. It'd be amazing if the phone manufacturers could have a switch where you basically press a button or it's scheduled and it flicks to a basic phone with basic functionality. So when you're going to school, you've got a map, you've got to be able to track, to be able to message, but all the other distractions are all removed. So it's like a really basic interface, it's like a basic phone and then when they return back from school, then it flicks back to the smartphone that we know but we don't want the smartphone at all, and that's my point, honey one of the things is that, as you said, that alleviates the situation, for parents need feeling they have a need for a name where their child is traveling home from school.
Chris:Okay, obviously still putting the phones in, because ultimately, if a phone is just a map or being able to message you, a really basic phone, you've got the same phone but you effectively got a limited functionality. So they're not sitting on social media, they're not playing games, they're not doing it, they're focusing on commuting back home from school or to to school and then, in a controlled manner, then you can turn on some of that stuff. So this halfway house.
Linzi:Yeah, I disagree is really a.
Chris:I think it has to be stepping stones to it.
Linzi:I disagree. I think up until the age of probably 15, 16, there shouldn't be any access to social media stuff at all. It's a massive topic, but it's just. The evidence is there, we've seen it and, as you say, your boys are now 21, 22. We've seen the impact and I've spoken to a lot of those in teenage years and what they're explaining to us and how they're thinking now because of the exposure they've had with social media, and I think we just make it so that they literally have just a phone that is for there for calling for texts, with a map, with a location tracker and a few other little simple things. But there's not, even behind the scenes, any social media stuff to be switched on later. I think the phones have got to be there to provide that functionality of being able to communicate with parents and that's it. And that we have to educate. And I think this is where the schools come in, that it's the schools have got to work with the parents and we have got to educate. And I think this is where the schools come in, that it's the schools have got to work with the parents and we have got to educate teachers, parents, children.
Linzi:You know we're going to talk to our children, our twins, about the reasons why we believe social media is not for children. It's not suitable for their age groups, or even when they're 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 13, 14, 15. And even then they can make a decision whether they feel that it's something they want to do when they're old enough to make better decisions. But at this age their brains are not fully developed. They're like sponges and they're absorbing so much information and that is setting up, it's programming their world, their minds, in such a way that if we don't start talking to them about it now and explaining what's actually happening, why social media has the success that it has, they're just gonna, they're just gonna follow along with the crowd and just nothing's gonna change and this is the thing you can see just how how big a subject there is and trying to get consensus.
Chris:I think it has to be, because people won't take it up because the change is so extreme and what will be pushed is the way.
Chris:There are some positives.
Chris:There are positives to having access to information if it's controlled, but it's a case of how that's delivered and obviously the social media companies have failed up to this point to actually do anything significantly without being pushed by government to do something, because they're just monopolizing on our data and obviously for their corporate gain.
Chris:But there, yeah, it certainly needs to be. I mean, it'd be great if there's a more of a social aware organization which was almost like a cooperative or some format which was for the community, of community focused, rather than corporate focus for bottom line profit, which, of course, all these organizations are. So, yeah, it's a big subject, but I think the conversations need to be had now and decisions need to be made quickly to get to a better understanding, because both you and me are seeing more and more people coming through with issues, with social anxiety, with trauma which is based off of bullying, based off all kinds of pressures from these platforms, because, ultimately, the mobile phone itself is an amazing invention. It's what's running on it, which is basically the social media platforms and the games, and, as I said, they're designed to release dopamine in your brain, to keep you hooked, and that's that's what's creating so many issues.
Linzi:So we're having these addictions it's a topic that I could talk for hours about. As you can tell, I'm really passionate about it. I feel very strongly about it and watch this space because I've joined this movement and I'm certainly going to do everything I possibly can to get changes, to ensure that parents get the support that they need, because we do need the support. But we have to work together. We have to work as a community and, again, with the schools. It's all about coming together as a community, understanding, supporting one another and ensuring that we can make the difference to help our children, to help the next generation. I'm looking forward to our next episode and hope that those of you listening will join us and listen to all our other episodes and we've got interviews as well coming up. So thank you, chris.
Chris:And thank you listeners for listening in and if you like this episode, then do like and share. Until next time, goodbye.
Linzi:Bye, everyone Bye.
